Shire-thain versus Thain of the Shire[]
I'm not sure 'Shire-thain' is the correct primary usage. Tolkien uses 'Thain of the Shire' twice in the appendices and 'Shire-thain' only once. Additionally all holders of the title are titled (for example) 'Thain Peregrin' rather than 'Shire-thain Peregrin' in the text. Thain of the Shire is also used as primary usage in the text of Return of the King itself and the title is indexed in the Return of the King index as 'Thain' not Shire-thain. Given this Thain of the Shire should be the primary article title. Gondorian2012 (talk) 00:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- The term “Shire-thain” is consistent with Tolkien's other usage of “Shire-“ words with wiki pages. Regarding the term “Thain”, I disagree about using it over the more specific term “Shire-thain”. Regarding the phrase “Thain of the Shire”, redirects exist, so people would not be confused when they are redirected to this page. Despite this, however, I would be willing to compromise. Thain of the Shire could be the page name, but Shire-thain would be used over just “Thain”. Also, the index was not written by Tolkien.Drour1234 (talk) 20:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tolkien only used 'Shire-thain' once in the whole text. Given that 'Thain of the Shire' is clearly the primary usage that's what the page should be titled. Tolkien didn't use 'Shire-thain Peregrin' for example, he used 'Thain Peregrin'. Also 'Bucca of the Marish becomes Thain of the Shire', 'Isumbras I becomes thirteen Thain' etc. Therefore to have Shire-thain as the page title only introduces unnecessary confusion. It might be more encyclopedic-ly neat, but it doesn't match Tolkien's usage therefore it can't take precedence. Gondorian2012 (talk) 21:03, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- The wiki doesn’t need to match Tolkien’s usage exactly. It should be more encyclopedic. Having Shire-thain as the name of the page would not create confusion since the people can read on the page that “Shire-thain” and “Thain of the Shire” referred to the same thing. It does not matter which term is used more. Both were used by Tolkien. What matters is that one of them is consistent with the other “Shire-“ pages while the other is not.Drour1234 (talk) 23:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- You're being disingenuous there as I've noted you've gone about changing 'Thain' to 'Shire-thain' on most pages despite it not being the principal usage. Consistency is important, but not at the expense of accepted usage. Otherwise there'd need to be numerous alterations made to the wiki to take into account obscure references that don't reflect the main usage. Gondorian2012 (talk) 11:38, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am not being disingenuous; I changed “Thain” to “Shire-thain” so that it is consistent with the other “Shire-“ terms. Consistency is important as long as the page name was used at some point by Tolkien (preferably in writings published in his lifetime). Obscure references should be taken into account.Drour1234 (talk) 22:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not consistent with the other Shire titles. It's Warden of Westmarch, not Westmarch-warden, Mayor of Michel Delving or Mayor of the Shire, not Michel Delving-mayor or Shire-mayor. Randomly picking a barely used term so it fits in with other barely used terms and then changing entire articles to fit in with that is very bad practice. Gondorian2012 (talk) 09:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- Warden of Westmarch and Mayor of Michel Delving/Mayor of the Shire are exceptions because Tolkien never wrote any other name for those titles. Shire-thain is consistent with the majority of “Shire-“ names.Drour1234 (talk) 01:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- But it's not consistent with the other Shire titles, which is the whole point because this article is about exactly that, a specific title. It's frankly absurd to override the main usage and claim a consistency entirely contradictory to all the other Shire office holders just because of Tolkien's usage of a hyphen to describe various generic Shire topics. Gondorian2012 (talk) 23:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- As I have said before, the titles Warden of Westmarch and Mayor of Michel Delving/Mayor of the Shire are exceptions to Tolkien’s pattern of naming terms related to The Shire. Those other Shire- terms aren’t generic terms. Despite this, I may be willing to compromise to end this debate. Let me know if you want to hear it or if you have any ideas for a compromise.Drour1234 (talk) 07:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- This sounds like an impasse that would be good to get an admin ruling on... FYI, page name patterns used in a wiki should never be used as a reason to override predominant usage in source material. FWIW, Tolkien Gateway just uses Thain for their page name which seems most sensible. -- Fandyllic (talk · contr) 28 Jun 2024 4:14 PM Pacific
- The term “Thain” should not be used for the page name because it is generic. Shire-thain and Thain of the Shire are both names used by Tolkien. One is more consistent with the rest of the “Shire-“ terms while the other is just consistent with two titles in the Shire. In addition, Shire-thain is quicker to type and is not the longest name possible (the longest name possible is “Thain of the Shire”). In my last post, I said I was willing to compromise and asked if Gondorian2012 had any ideas in mind for one or if they wanted to hear my idea for a compromise. I agree, however, that one (or multiple) Admin opinion(s) would be great on this matter.Drour1234 (talk) 01:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've been ill for awhile so this had slipped my mind. It's plain wrong to say that Shire-thain is consistent with either the other Shire titles or with Tolkien's usage. Taking that into account I can't see that asking for ideas is productive as it's a change which should be reversed. Admin opinion would therefore be helpful. Gondorian2012 (talk) 13:07, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
- The term “Thain” should not be used for the page name because it is generic. Shire-thain and Thain of the Shire are both names used by Tolkien. One is more consistent with the rest of the “Shire-“ terms while the other is just consistent with two titles in the Shire. In addition, Shire-thain is quicker to type and is not the longest name possible (the longest name possible is “Thain of the Shire”). In my last post, I said I was willing to compromise and asked if Gondorian2012 had any ideas in mind for one or if they wanted to hear my idea for a compromise. I agree, however, that one (or multiple) Admin opinion(s) would be great on this matter.Drour1234 (talk) 01:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- This sounds like an impasse that would be good to get an admin ruling on... FYI, page name patterns used in a wiki should never be used as a reason to override predominant usage in source material. FWIW, Tolkien Gateway just uses Thain for their page name which seems most sensible. -- Fandyllic (talk · contr) 28 Jun 2024 4:14 PM Pacific
- As I have said before, the titles Warden of Westmarch and Mayor of Michel Delving/Mayor of the Shire are exceptions to Tolkien’s pattern of naming terms related to The Shire. Those other Shire- terms aren’t generic terms. Despite this, I may be willing to compromise to end this debate. Let me know if you want to hear it or if you have any ideas for a compromise.Drour1234 (talk) 07:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- But it's not consistent with the other Shire titles, which is the whole point because this article is about exactly that, a specific title. It's frankly absurd to override the main usage and claim a consistency entirely contradictory to all the other Shire office holders just because of Tolkien's usage of a hyphen to describe various generic Shire topics. Gondorian2012 (talk) 23:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Warden of Westmarch and Mayor of Michel Delving/Mayor of the Shire are exceptions because Tolkien never wrote any other name for those titles. Shire-thain is consistent with the majority of “Shire-“ names.Drour1234 (talk) 01:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not consistent with the other Shire titles. It's Warden of Westmarch, not Westmarch-warden, Mayor of Michel Delving or Mayor of the Shire, not Michel Delving-mayor or Shire-mayor. Randomly picking a barely used term so it fits in with other barely used terms and then changing entire articles to fit in with that is very bad practice. Gondorian2012 (talk) 09:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am not being disingenuous; I changed “Thain” to “Shire-thain” so that it is consistent with the other “Shire-“ terms. Consistency is important as long as the page name was used at some point by Tolkien (preferably in writings published in his lifetime). Obscure references should be taken into account.Drour1234 (talk) 22:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- You're being disingenuous there as I've noted you've gone about changing 'Thain' to 'Shire-thain' on most pages despite it not being the principal usage. Consistency is important, but not at the expense of accepted usage. Otherwise there'd need to be numerous alterations made to the wiki to take into account obscure references that don't reflect the main usage. Gondorian2012 (talk) 11:38, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- The wiki doesn’t need to match Tolkien’s usage exactly. It should be more encyclopedic. Having Shire-thain as the name of the page would not create confusion since the people can read on the page that “Shire-thain” and “Thain of the Shire” referred to the same thing. It does not matter which term is used more. Both were used by Tolkien. What matters is that one of them is consistent with the other “Shire-“ pages while the other is not.Drour1234 (talk) 23:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tolkien only used 'Shire-thain' once in the whole text. Given that 'Thain of the Shire' is clearly the primary usage that's what the page should be titled. Tolkien didn't use 'Shire-thain Peregrin' for example, he used 'Thain Peregrin'. Also 'Bucca of the Marish becomes Thain of the Shire', 'Isumbras I becomes thirteen Thain' etc. Therefore to have Shire-thain as the page title only introduces unnecessary confusion. It might be more encyclopedic-ly neat, but it doesn't match Tolkien's usage therefore it can't take precedence. Gondorian2012 (talk) 21:03, 19 June 2024 (UTC)