User talk:Bitterhand

Thanks for removing the word "we" from articles. That's an essential encyclopedic mistake that only I've been correcting. Also, welcome. 'HiddenVale -  TalkPage ' 20:02, June 21, 2018 (UTC)

No problem; that's something that bothers me as well. And thanks for the welcome! I'll be happy to help around here however I can. --Bitterhand (talk) 21:06, June 21, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Assumption/citing question
Ohhh, okay that makes sense; that doesn't tend to happen here actually. Utilize this new template. Alternatively, if neither The Atlas of Middle-earth nor "The Land of Shadow" contain the specific descriptions of lands found in that article, go ahead and remove whatever claims look opinionated. 'HiddenVale -  TalkPage ' 21:36, June 22, 2018 (UTC)

Mae Govannen from a Fellow Christian and Tolkienite
Hi Bitterhand! I just wanted to drop by and say "Mae Govannen to You!" It's always nice to meet another Christian Tolkienite on this wiki! ;)

"ℌ𝔦𝔰 𝔏𝔬𝔳𝔢 𝔑𝔢𝔳𝔢𝔯 𝔉𝔞𝔦𝔩𝔰!" (𝙻𝚎𝚊𝚟𝚎 𝙼𝚎 𝙰 𝙽𝚘𝚝𝚎) 15:55, June 26, 2018 (UTC)

Kindle ref's
Remove any references containing Kindle-page numbers, i.e. "Beren and Lúthien, Kindle Loc. 330-331". In their place, leave behind the { { fact } } notice. In time I will replace them with appropriate references, once I read the non-Kindle version of the book myself. 'HiddenVale -  TalkPage ' 00:40, June 28, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Holman Greenhand
Yes the redirect page can be deleted. What is it exactly? 'HiddenVale -  TalkPage ' 23:59, June 28, 2018 (UTC)

Alright, redirect's been deleted. And you're welcome! That's the idea. 'HiddenVale -  TalkPage ' 00:59, June 29, 2018 (UTC)

What you did is appropriate. 'HiddenVale -  TalkPage '

The references guide
I should have mentioned this earlier: in case you're ever citing a book in an edit, here is my page of the Reference standards, explaining a reference format that's gradually been replacing an older one. It is cluttered with clarifiers and examples, so let me know how readable you think it is. 'HiddenVale -  TalkPage ' 20:06, July 1, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Fireworks
Ha! Wow, the difference is their apostrophe. One uses ` and the other '. The shorter article will be deleted; thanks for bringing that to light. 'HiddenVale -  TalkPage ' 05:15, July 6, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Various questions
1. I never inspected that campaignbox closely to notice that. I've looked and found out that very few of the events listed are to canon-articles; because of this, remove the campaignbox from Canon articles - I've removed it from Attack on Lake-town, and at Battle of the Five Armies it's actually put in the proper section - and don't make a new canonical equivalent of the campaignbox. It would contain very few things, as most events & encounters from The Hobbit aren't really things you can make a substantial article out of. Glad you observed this - It's definitely a good idea to make sure that canon articles, or sections of articles, never easily lead a reader to articles on topics originating from a despicable film trilogy.

2. Thanks for finding that.

3. Aha, you're thinking of the word fanon. "Fandom" isn't short for "fan-fiction"; it just has to do with being a fan of something, hence the new name of this site's owner-brand. If our policy uses the word "Fandom" the wrong way I'll go and correct it. The state of that category and most of its contents are fine.

"Fan videos" is a bit out of place here, so I've deleted that. Same with the South Park article, for your reasons.

4. There was episodic vandalism at Grond a few years ago, but I'll revert the protection on it. It's better anyways to allow vandalizers to act so that they can then be blocked.

5. Well in cases such as "Mouth of Sauron", one would never mention his name without using "The". So it depends on whether out-loud use of the name/subject would be awkward without the word. Hopefully no cases of that would be too uncertain. Say the emboldened name out loud to yourself as if talking about it and note whether you use "The" beforehand.

No problem at all. Everything was clear, and it should be an administrator's duty in general to reply resolutely to inquiries and approval requests. You've unveiled a great many things of note for me here; continue! '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 00:54, July 11, 2018 (UTC)

Good idea actually, about Hill-men; done. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 00:15, July 12, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Hill trolls
Oh.. I probably put that there and didn't realize that. No problem then! '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 00:35, July 16, 2018 (UTC)

Re: A few other questions and notes
1. Yes, Idis and Rimion would be. Idis is not "non-canonical", as the idea of her did not originate from non-canonical sources as the template qualifies. I'll go and replace my "Precanonical main characters" category with "Precanonical characters", so go ahead and add it to those two pages. All of Rimion's current categories are fine.

An example of a character I considered to be "precanonical" when coining the concept was Tevildo; he was simply the forerunner to Sauron, but we consider his identity to be seperate from Sauron's identity enough, because he was a feline person and not a Maia. (One couldn't say merely that "the character Sauron was named Tevildo in earlier versions".) They are distinguishable. On the other hand, the original character Tinúviel from The Tale of Tinúviel is not really distinguishable from the later equivalent character Lúthien; thus there is not a seperate article for Tinúviel.'''

2. Thanks for doing that. Link to me the collection of templates (if that's how you accessed them all) that are of unknown type and I'll do the rest of them. The Took Family Tree has been fixed.

3. That's a complicated process. We have a lot of them given the site's age. Don't worry about it; I'll ask a bunch of questions at Portability Hub sometime in the next century.

4. Neither are really preferrable, but RiversOfBeleriand should be on all of those.

5. No, since "Kingdom under the Mountain" is actually one term mentioned in the Appendices that applies specifically to the kingdom, which leaves "Erebor" and "Lonely Mountain" to be synonymous terms for the whole mountain. Seperately, on page 1046 (in Appendix A) it states that Náin's son...came to Erebor, the Lonely Mountain, near the eastern eaves of Mirkwood. This preceded the establishment of the kingdom.

6. Taken care of. I'll look into why those Trivia Quiz pages are unhandleable.

7. Those are images actually, not wikitext objects, so unfortunately they'd have to be individually shopped for adding transparency. I'm making that a new secondary goal of mine to fix.

You're welcome! Cheers, '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 00:46, July 18, 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the links!

That would violate the very importance of something being canon (on a Wiki that primarily concerns what is canon) versus something non-canon. The name of an article is the most defining trait of the substance of the article, considering that for a reader, the title of an article precedes what they then read in the article. (Likewise our own universe was preceded & caused by the Word, not vice versa.) Names/terms that random filmmakers or game-developers came up with don't get to, figuratively, be the Wiki's label of an original thing Tolkien had made up. Unless they made it up in the first place, and not him.

Regardless, having a page for Durin's axe would be like having a page for Gandalf's pointy hat, or for Sam's pan collection. We have articles for weapons that either actually have names or have extraordinary qualities. The name Barazanthual has no importance relative to the actual character's weapon, because the developers of whichever game it was could have named it Chuck if they wanted to. At this Wiki canon should obviously be treated as "true", non-fiction, in analogy to non-canon being treated as fiction.

'<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 02:44, July 18, 2018 (UTC)

1. It makes sense actually to make that change, since I did add the section qualification to the NonCanon notice last year. So yes.

2. We don't officially adopt the same policy, but go ahead and remove them.

3. Yes.

4. I had deleted that page already; somehow the talk-page lingered.

5. That's a bit strange, since other creature species are universally not labeled in the singular - e.g. "Orcs", "Eagles", "Ents", "Mewlips", "Elves". I'd recommend reverting them all to plural. In a hypothetical Brothers Grimm encyclopedia, it would make sense for "Troll" to be a species referred to in the singular, since in context, one would think of the particular, singular troll who lived under a bridge and met three goats. But in Middle-earth, Trolls have the same plural identity as other races, since we see many of them and no one of them has a significant role.

6. Well that isn't good. I'll remove the redirects.

7. I remember noticing that before and forgetting to remedy it; I've removed the code from Template:Infobox Actor that automated that.

8. We have a separate article for "Elbereth" because by its frequent appearance in The Lord of the Rings, one who has only read the trilogy might be unaware that it's an alternate name for Varda. To my knowledge, the name 'Varda' does not appear there. And, because other Valar apart from her aren't similarly mentioned.

9. The List of Animals article is currently not allowing my keyboard to work properly, but I'll be set on it.

10. Aha. I am familiar with the rare map and thought I had properly labeled all unfamiliar Mordor-locations that appeared on it. The map was drawn for film guides, such as Weapons and Warfare and Jude Fisher's visual companions, and the invented locations it features are of the collective film-fanon stuff that relates to MERP, thelandofshadow.com, and the games you mentioned. Unsure which entity actually came up with them first. I've put the NonCanon notice on Ered Glamhoth.

11. Might as well, yes. Here it is.

No problem! '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 22:52, July 25, 2018 (UTC)

No, only if Christopher Tolkien mentions that they were eventually excluded, as he does with Eriol. We don't know that the inhabitants of the Cottage, or the Cottage itself, didn't really exist in all versions of the mythology; the reason we can be sure Eriol did not is because his character is linked to real-world England. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 04:54, July 26, 2018 (UTC)

Oh, yes I guess so. I'll fix them all. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 21:49, July 26, 2018 (UTC)

Re:Non-canon Nazgul
Yes that's fine. Make sure to transfer any images that the articles have. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 18:42, July 27, 2018 (UTC)

Good, thanks. Only administrators can, so I'll delete them. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 23:06, July 27, 2018 (UTC)

Re:
We don't, because in most cases, it is no less helpful to simply mention infobox-appropriate information in the sentences of the article itself. So with Emilíana, her image will have to stand alone, and those factoids resituated.

And yes; good thinking. I've deleted it. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 00:31, August 2, 2018 (UTC)

Category name
Categories with "Laketown" in the name must instead have "Lake-town", as the place is never spelled the former way. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 00:30, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Mordor locations
Yes. Some locations I'm sure were made by the website, some were made by the filmmakers independently of fan-fiction, but do appear on that website's map. This way, both categories, even though connected, contain all articles that apply side-by-side. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 23:14, August 7, 2018 (UTC)

Aha - yes some other infoboxes say "Peter Jackson's Film Trilogy and other media". So I'll change the heading on that infobox to "Peter Jackson's films or other media". Thanks for seeing.

Hmm the basic template did say "and other media". Point me to a page. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 00:56, August 8, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Separate articles for Fili and Kili
Mae Govannen, Bitterhand! Thank you for asking my opinion on giving Fili and Kili separate pages. I read your reasoning on HiddenVale's talk page, but I'm afraid that I cannot honestly agree with you that the characters should each have a page all to themselves because they are always mentioned together in The Hobbit; it just seems as though there wouldn't be much to write about one without including the other; plus, there is already a page for the both of them. But that's just how I see it. :)

Love your new signature, by the way! ;)

—<font face="Trajan Pro">J.S. Clingman Fëalórin, A Child of Him   <font face="Trajan Pro">whose love never fails. 18:18, August 15, 2018 (UTC)

Re: New issues
1. Impressively I never noticed that they were seperate articles beforehand.... The two names have almost the same relation as "Erebor" and "Lonely Mountain", expect neither are the name of the mountain, and "Moria" was simply the name of Khazad-dûm once it was overrun and desolate (for which reason Tolkien Gateway has a single article). The policy page doesn't say that; it only says that the article name should be the more familiar label. But thank you for directing me to the policy page anyways; it needed a wash.

3. I haven't. Once I get to the New Shadow section of THOME, I'll see if it's true and recreate the article if so.

4. Nothing really (null to use a better word). All connected topics to The New Shadow are clarified to have originated from an unfinished story; wiki viewers will understand all they need by knowing that. Any details of Tolkien quickly abandoning the story should be given on the tale's article; this also sufficiently enlightens viewers, and none will wonder what canon designation it has. Because there's not a substantial amount of other abandoned content, we don't need a new designation to account for all parts of the canon gradient. (We have some articles categorized as "Precanon" that also pertain to topics abandoned by him without replacement, so things would conflict.)

5. It wouldn't hurt to split them, if indeed the film differences are significant, but that isn't something I'll undertake.

There is less reason to split Elladan and Elrohir because they are together in all contexts (in lore and in adaptations), and having seperate articles would entail a larger percentage of duplicate text than Kili and Fili. Kili and Fili are major characters in their story.

No problem. '<font color="#248f24">HiddenVale -  <font color="#cccc00">TalkPage ' 23:14, August 15, 2018 (UTC)